Thinning the herd
Deer hunt planned for Loch Raven Reservoir property
By Bryan P. Sears
Posted 7/11/08
(Enlarge) The growing deer population in Baltimore County makes close encounters with the animals fairly common. In this shot, taken in October 2007, hikers and bikers participating in a fundraising event on the the Northern Central Railroad trail are just feet behind a doe crossing their path. (File photo by Jason Fritz)
"This is part of (County Executive) Jim Smith's sustainability plan," said John Markley, manager of finance administration for the county Department of Environmental Protection and Resource Management. Markley spoke on behalf of David Carroll, the county's director of sustainability and former department director.
Carroll, who has been working with the city on a deer-management strategy for the better part of two years, was unavailable for comment due to a death in his family. The city owns the reservoir, which includes parcels in Cockeysville, Timonium and Towson, as well as Phoenix and Glen Arm.
Two weeks ago, Democratic Sen. Jim Brochin, who represents the Towson area, and Republican Councilman Bryan McIntire, who represents much of the area to the north and east of Loch Raven Reservoir, advocated a managed hunt in a meeting with city Deputy Mayor Christopher Thomaskutty.
The county plans to hold at least one community meeting in the first half of August to explain the program to area residents. Markley said there will be opportunities for community input but said it is unlikely the managed hunt will be canceled.
Enid Feinberg, a Phoenix resident and one of three founding members of deersolutionsmd.com, said she was disappointed at the prospect of a hunt on reservoir property.
"If this wasn't so sad, it would be comical," she said.
Environmentalists brought in recently by Feinberg could find no evidence of damage caused by deer in wooded areas around the reservoir, she said. She also questioned the need for a hunt based on claims of overpopulation.
"There's no proof that we need this," she said. "There's no scientific data."
The reservoir likely will be open to bowhunters sometime this fall. County officials indicated that the bowhunting probably will be combined with the use of an outside contractor to "sharpshoot" deer on reservoir property.
Baltimore City manages three reservoirs in the county -- Liberty, Loch Raven and Prettyboy.
Kurt Kocher, a spokesman for the city Department of Public Works, said his agency has "been facing an extremely serious problem with the deer population at Loch Raven for years."
Complaints from residents about property damage, vehicle accidents involving deer and animals crashing into stores have been well documented, Kocher said.
An even bigger concern is the damage an unchecked deer population can do to the area's water supply, he said.
"Deer are devastating to new growth needed for a healthy forest," Kocher said. "They are eating everything in sight, and that means you have old trees and not much to replace them. Without the trees, you have runoff that fills the reservoir with sediment, thus reducing our total water capacity."
Kocher said the overpopulation is also a danger to other animals living in the area.
Last year, Goucher College used contractors for a controlled hunt on its 287-acre Towson campus.
Specific areas of the 11-square-mile reservoir property that will be hunted have not been identified.
In March, county officials used a police helicopter to do a deer census using radar in the reservoir and at Oregon Ridge Park.
Markley said a forest can reasonably sustain 10 deer per square mile. County surveys found 67 and 83 deer per square mile, respectively, in Oregon Ridge Park and the reservoir.
"There's absolutely no possibility that the deer population, through magic or some trick of nature, decreased," said John Peditto, state director of wildlife and heritage services in the Department of Natural Resources.
The newest reservoir number is more than double the finding of a 1999 state survey.
The hunt could begin as early as Sept. 15 in what would be the first of five seasons, Peditto said.
In this region, the state allows bowhunters to take an unlimited number of antlerless, or female, deer during bow seasons.
"That forces the hunters to focus on the part of the population responsible for the over-population," Peditto said.
Prettyboy and Liberty have allowed bowhunting of deer for 35 years, according to Kocher.
A hunt at Loch Raven Reservoir likely would be similar to those at those reservoirs.
Kocher said Prettyboy and Liberty are different from Loch Raven "because they are away from the more densely populated areas."
"Loch Raven is almost downtown Towson," Kocher said, so there is a greater chance of conflict between deer and people.
Peditto said he believes the hunt will have little effect on residents or visitors to Loch Raven reservoir.
Bryan P. Sears is political editor of Patuxent Publishing Company's Baltimore County newspapers.
Editor's note: This version of "Thinning the herd" replaces an earlier Web version. A quote by a city official was edited to more accurately reflect the intention of the speaker.
user comments (65)
user la930930 says...
Thank you Enid, when reading reports of slaughter, or rather "population management" to deal with deer "crises," it is so nice to hear a voice that actually knows about the issue and has no alterior motive for their statements. Bow-hunting is inhumane and ineffective. Unfortunately when people see wildlife in their area, yuppies start fearing for their lives and yelling "CRISIS!" while hunters begin licking their lips in anticipation. There are other methods, of animal population control that does not involve bloodshed. As a species I think we should be evolving to other means. We are supposedly a civilized species. We need to prove it by exploring one of the many other means of population control, rather than barbaric, violent methods.
Posted 10:04 PM, 07.09.08
user says...
The utter ignorance that is abundantly apparent on this topic is astounding. I'm going to present some truth into the discussion. Loch Raven has a browse line that is 6 feet off the ground. Liberty, and Prettyboy have browse lines that are at 3 feet off the ground. Neither is good, but the impact of bowhunting on the ecosystems is clearly apparent to anyone who spends time around the lakes, and mores to learned ecologists, and environmentalists. Reputable environmentalists ascert that one square mile of forest can support eight to ten deer without a negative effect on the forest. Loch Raven contains at least 6 times that number on average. Add to that, deer are edge feeders, and don't do well in the deep woods, so the suburban environment only causes higher rates of reproduction when deer feed on the lush plantings in landscaped lawns. Couple that with the fact that far too many people like our friend Enid spent years feeding these deer, increasing their reproductive rates that much more, and the real problems around Loch Raven become evident. I've hunted deer for about 15 years, and have been a bow hunter for three. I grew up in Owings Mills out in the woods before there was any real developement there, and back then you might have seen a deer once a year. We've chosen to take their environment, and forced them into tighter, and tighter spaces that cant support the numbers that the larger spaces did. We've created two situations that are not workng. We've decreased areas to which deer can retreat , and increased food sources thereby increasing their reproductive rates. This doesn't help the forests because they will strip that first before coming out in the open to feed, which we all see them doing every day. Today dead deer litter our roads, and highways, damage our cars, injure, and on rare occasions kill our drivers. What comes next is inevitable. We need to reduce the numbers. We have some options available. We can hire people to go out at night with silenced rifles, and kill them by the truckload at a cost of about $200 per animal. We can try the animal lover's solution, and dart the females with hormones twice a year at a cost of $500 per animal, which creates the problem of hormone laced meat ending up on the table of a hunter's family, and in soup kitchens all over the State that gladly accept otherwise hard to get fresh meat. Finally, we can allow hunters to pay the State for the opportunity to thin the herds. hunters will increase the State's coffers, and show up in numbers far greater than we could ever contract out in the way of snipers, and darters. Of the options available to us, hunting is the most effective, and certainly the least costly as it's done in the black, and not in the red. I can't end this without commenting on " Bow-hunting is inhumane and ineffective". Bowhunting is very humane. Deer that are hit properly with razor sharp broadheads never know that they have been hit. If you've ever cut your finger with a sharp razor you understand my point. A clean cut is painless. The idea behind bowhunting with a broadhead is to get the animal to bleed out as quickly as possible, much the way someone who commits suicide by slitting their wrists wants to die. It's painless, and peaceful. A deer will lay down, pass out, and die a peaceful death. I've shot deer, and seen them continue to graze before they layed down, but most of the time they are startled because they felt something, run a short distance, and when they don't see a threat they walk off as if nothing happened. I said originally that I was going to inject some truth here, and so I'll include all of it. The rare inexperienced, and careless bowhunter will at times make a less than perfect shot. Sometimes these deer survive, sometimes they do not. The rare deer that is not recovered is not wasted. Nature wastes nothing. As a new hunter three years ago I had one survive an arrow. That deer still runs the woods today with the scar of my hit. I saw him last season. That makes me happy. I'll get him another time. I've got private land I pay to hunt, but I'm looking forward to hunting Loch Raven this season. Not because I think that it will be easy pickings(I preffer the challenge of the more wary animals that have less human contact) but as a responsible steward of the land I feel a duty to do my part in thinning a herd that is grossly overpopulated. The Loch Raven situation will be a great opportunity to have young hunters experience early success, and I hope many of them get a chance to experience it. Thank you for reading my thoughts, and the facts I've presented here.
Posted 11:04 PM, 07.09.08
user enidfeinberg says...
I am not surprised how misleading this article is given how I was misquoted. In fact, stories like this are why we created the website deersolutionsmd.com and why we recently established a statewide group that will be concentrating solely on electing politicians. Yes, I did say we brought in environmentalists, but what I told the reporter was “they found minimal deer damage in comparison to the damage from the illegal mountain biking paths and since they can’t shoot the bikers, I guess they are going after the deerâ€. As a resident who lives very close to Loch Raven and a member of Maryland's Department of Natural Resources Deer Stakeholders Group, I want to go on record that I vehemently oppose the slaughter of the deer in Loch Raven. I feel I have a great deal of knowledge and evidence about this subject. DNR gets the vast majority of it's funding from hunting related activities and the majority of people in a position of power in the Wildlife and Heritage Division are hunters. Since licensed hunters have declined by over 50% to only 2.2% of Marylanders, they are literally fighting to keep hunting alive. Their major objective is to give hunters more hunting opportunities, not helping the general public coexist with deer. In fact, one must question who is really the true instigator behind the proposed hunt? A statement in an article in Mid Atlantic Gaming magazine certainly sheds a new light on that question. And I quote “ Local hunting organizations are trying to open up more areas of the watershed to hunting during the upcoming seasons by applying political pressure on local officials. No form of hunting is currently permitted at Loch Raven Reservoir...†I have never seen any scientific proof or studies to validate the claims about the deer in Loch Raven even though I have requested them. In fact, your reporter told me that Bob Beyer of DNR told him last Thursday that they didn’t have data to prove there were more deer. So I guess this new fly over data just magically appeared and just flew under the radar screen of one the top people for DNR’s deer program. It is more of a case of I see more deer so therefore there must be more deer, which is not very scientific. The committee that was set up was comprised of all pro-hunting participants, so it is no surprise that they recommended killing the deer. I have gone on record about my great concern over the makeup of this work group. Especially since my own experience with David Carroll was anything but pleasant or productive in regards to non-lethal solutions. He is 100% pro-hunting and 110% against the use of ANY non-lethal alternatives. And their claim that it will have little impact is certainly not true. Several people I know whose properties adjoin Loch Raven have already found razor sharp arrows where their children play and injured, dying deer on their properties even though hunting is illegal. Many people surrounding the other reservoirs have similar complaints in addition to serious altercations with hunters. What will happen when you actually let bow hunters in, how many arrows will be found and how many lives will you be endangering. I have personally witnessed just last year not one but two bucks with arrows imbedded in their neck and head. Since it is legal to discharge a weapon just 150 yards from an occupied residence, a homeowner whose property adjoins Loch Raven just voiced his concern to me over whether his guests at his next backyard barbecue will need orange safety vests and what will happen to his property value. Most people surrounding Loch Raven do not want any hunting, in fact 95% of the people we asked to sign the petitions against the hunting and killing the deer in Loch Raven did so. Unfortunately they do not call politicians and say we enjoy seeing the deer, only the deer haters call and say they ate my plants, you need to kill them! We flirt with disaster every time a hunter lifts a shotgun or shoots an arrow. Hunters can easily miscalculate and kill someone in areas where there's an abundance of joggers, people riding horses, people walking family pets and children running free. Just in Maryland alone this past year there were at least 2 hunters killed by other hunters who shot at moving bushes without first determining what they were shooting at. There were hundreds of deaths and accidents throughout the United States. There is no proficiency exam given to bow hunters in Maryland that tests the hunters knowledge of shot placement or a shooting test to test the hunters ability to put a certain number of shots in the kill zone on a 3-D target. It took years to get the Streiter Deer Reflectors installed on the city portion of Dulaney Valley Road between the bridge and Peerces and they have resulted in an over 90% reduction of deer car collisions. No one believed that they worked and once they were installed everyone is amazed at their success. This only proves that there are non-lethal solutions out there, but they won’t work if they are not used. The public should demand that non-lethal humane solutions be offered to resolve their concerns, or nothing will ever progress and change and the killing will continue.
Posted 8:27 AM, 07.10.08
user ilikemeat says...
Hey enidfeinburg, talk about being hypocritical, where in the article did they say "slaughter"? You make it sound like us hunters are murderous people, we shoot deer, run on top of them and rip the heart out and drink the blood right there. I don't appreciate you stereotyping me, because that is what you are doing. The fact that you say you "think" you are qualified to speak on this subject proves you have no idea what you are doing, you are only thinking of the cute little animals and will make up lies/solutions just to prove your point. I think next time someone becomes victim to lyme disease because of the exposure of excess deer, you should provide payment to the victim since we should not eradicate any deer at all. Your ignorance disgusts me. I am a member of farmers and hunters feeding the hungry, this is a great place to put the meat, it would not be wasted or "slaughtered" as you suggest. The problem with people like you (yes I'm sterotyping just like you are) is that you care more about animal life and than human life, and that's really, really sad. It's funny, you try to make the reference to two hunters being killed by other hunters, yes tragic, but how many people were killed by cars in MD last year? I guess we should ban people driving cars then, oh wait, that would probably inconvenience you and you wouldn't elect any politician interested in that, would you? Get a life and do something that actually makes a difference in this world, because otherwise you're just wasting air.
Posted 11:56 AM, 07.10.08
user voiceofreason says...
Once again, it looks like not having a vote gets you shot and killed in Maryland – if you are a deer that is. That is what’s about to happen to some innocent whitetail deer in Loch Raven Reservoir. Looks like the politicians -- Jim Brochin and Brian McIntire --have linked up with the Maryland Department of Natural Resources (DNR) to provide a spiffy new place for the hunting community to practically roll out of their urban bedrooms for a little local deer killing with bows and arrows. Ever see a wounded deer with an arrow through its neck and coming out of its mouth wandering in your backyard? Those people living around Loch Raven may get their chance this fall if your local politicians and DNR get their way. Or maybe you’ll have some poor doe deer, with her fawn, come up to your kitchen window with an arrow sticking in its eye. What will you say to your kids, if they find it? While Kurt Kocher, the spokesman for the City’s Department of Public Works may be getting complaints about deer -- I get the other side nobody is telling you about in this article. As an appointed member of Maryland’s Wildlife Advisory Commission for DNR, I have taken such calls and pleas to stop this cruelty from Marylanders time and time again. Bow hunting is cruel, and once again, about to rear its ugly head now in Loch Raven Reservoir, unless we put our foot down and place our votes and voices where they count. Only thanks to those brave people like Ms. Enid Feinberg standing tall for the deer, do these poor animals have anybody looking out for their interests in Maryland. Those who want to take the animals’ lives for sport are well heeled and organized in the Annapolis legislature. Thank you Ms. Feinberg! We need to stand behind Enid and stand up for the deer. Let’s give our wildlife a voice and not a broad head arrow. Tell the politicians “NO†to deer killing in Loch Raven.
Posted 12:35 PM, 07.10.08
user says...
"I want to go on record that I vehemently oppose the slaughter of the deer in Loch Raven." Slaughter? Really? For someone who lives an alternate lifestyle(which I support your personal choice to do) you sure don't have much tolerance for people who live different lifestyles than your own. Hunting is a tradition that has benn handed down through the centuries, and has been an accepted pastime since long before there was a U.S.A. How about a little celebration of diversity on your part, and some live, and let live. Lead by example. ;) "I have never seen any scientific proof or studies to validate the claims about the deer in Loch Raven even though I have requested them." Enid - You have knowledge, but you're in denial. you came here from New York city, and fell in love with the animals. Opposingly, I grew up in Owings Mills before there was any developement there, in what was then a very rural setting. When I was a kid we had to actually cut trails through the woods to get from one place to another. Today you can walk those same woods in any direction unrestricted by new growth. You remind ne of the people that have 70 cats in a city row home, and see nothing wrong with it. How can you POSSIBLY have lived there for as long as you did, and not have seen the problems that exist in the woods around the lake that are caused by the deer? Where do you find the new growth that would be the forest of 50 years from now, because for the life of me I sure don't see it. Everything that's green in the woods around the lake is at least five feet off the ground. All the new growth, and ground cover has been consumed by the deer there. There's your evidence. all you have to do is want to see it, and be open minded enough to recognize it. "Just in Maryland alone this past year there were at least 2 hunters killed by other hunters who shot at moving bushes without first determining what they were shooting at." Now you're being disingenuous at best, or deliberately decietful. Those incedents were both with firearms, and not archery equipment. Bowhunting is a close quarters affair, and shots are taken inside 40 yards, so the "orange vest at the backyard barbeque is just more hyperbole on your part". "There is no proficiency exam given to bow hunters in Maryland that tests the hunters knowledge of shot placement or a shooting test to test the hunters ability to put a certain number of shots in the kill zone on a 3-D target." As an avid bow hunter who practices at least two hours weekly throughout the entire year I'd welcome a proficienct test for a number of reasons. 1.) it would keep those go out in August an buy a bow to hunt with in September without properly preparing out of the woods. I don't want these people in the woods any more than you do. 2.) It would also motivate the hunter who hangs their bow up during the off season to work with it during the off season so they can be sure of passing the test. With that said, who would you have administer these tests so you'd be satisfied with the results? The way you paint bowhunters with a broad brush is both wrong, and offensive. Also, the way you assume that every hunter around the lake is there illegally is just as wrong. I personally know four hunters who have written permission to hunt land adjoining the lake, and I'm personally waiting for a response from a landowner on Jarretsville Pike who I expect will give me the OK to hunt his land. I'm sure there are many more hunters who hunt the private property around the lake legally. Again, I don't believe your 95% figure because I know too many who complain about the deer, and want hunter out there ridding them of the deer. "The public should demand that non-lethal humane solutions be offered to resolve their concerns, or nothing will ever progress and change and the killing will continue." "The public" has already had their voices heard when they voted for the representatives that support this effort. your minority view doesn't address the concerns of the majority of the people in this area who understand the entire scope of the problem. They not only realize the very high costs of the methods you propose, but they also understand the ecological dangers that are always possible when humans start introducing chemicals, and hormones into a natural environment. Added to that, there's the loss of deer meat donated to the Farmers, and hunters for the hungry progarm. That effort now stands at 2.5 million meat portions served in Maryland soup kitchens alone... all donated free of charge by Maryland hunters. Clearly, given your druthers, you'd put a complete stop to all hunting of every sort in Maryland simply because you see Bambi in every set of big brown deer eyes. i understand your emotional attraction to the deer. They are indeed beautiful animals.... but then the person with all those beautiful cats in the row home can't be left to their own devices any more than you, and the deer population that certainly needs to be addressed within our financial, and logistical means.
Posted 12:51 PM, 07.10.08
user lovethetasteofbambi says...
This is great!! I have been dying to get into Loch Raven to go hunting for the past fifteen years, but all the tree huggers were crying too much. Its nice to see that someone has the leadership to do what is right, over what is popular. The deer population in Baltimore County has been out of control for a least the last twenty years that I've been hunting. Moreover, the areas that are having the largest population issues are not the few remaining farms that exist in Northern Baltimore County (shout out to the Herford Zone), but the communities and neighborhoods in more suburban areas such as Loch Raven, Towson, and Timonium. As strange as it may sound, it looks like some of our elected leaders have the integrity and personal courage to make a decision to protect not only the citizens of Baltimore County, but our ecosystem as well. I truely hope this hunt is approved. A few years of responsible hunting in the area should bring the population back down to managable levels. We won't have to drive through Loch Raven and look at all the dead deer on the sides of the road from where they were struck by cars. We won't have our friends and neighbors being rushed to the hospital from a collision with a deer. If we have a hard winter (you'll have to bear with me, I'm in Iraq and I don't know what kinda winter they're predicting), we won't have deer starving to death due to lack of food. Most people, to include many of those that have already commented on this article, would like to paint a picture of a hunter as a man that is looking to satisfy his blood lust. While I will not disagree that the thrill of the hunt is not an adrenalin pumping experience, hunters are the most compasionate people out there. We are not just keeping an age old tradition alive, and passing it on to future generations, we are taking an active role in shaping the enviroment around us. Non-Lethal solutions? Do nothing about the size of the population and the fact that over development in Baltimore County is destroying the remaining habitat that the deer have. All Non-Lethal tactics do are move the deer out of one persons back yard into anothers, or into the streets where the public is at danger. The lack of hunting in Loch Raven has created this problem, its about time that our elected officials have decided that this is a problem that we should solve. Can't wait to get home from protecting this great land, to continuing to protect it in another capacity.
Posted 1:27 PM, 07.10.08
user huntinghelps says...
I would like to say I have never hunted in my life. I've gone fishing, without much luck, but my stepfather is a hunter. I think hunting, if done in moderation, depending on the circumstances is a very acceptable thing. It controls overgrown populations, diseases, and accidents. Then reason I agree with what Baltimore County is trying to do is because it is trying to help the deer population in the long run. Think about it people, these deer have little or no natural predators in Towson. They have gotten to the point that if they continue to grow in size they will eat every possible food source in their area. That includes food sources that other animals share with them. That means they will venture out across HIGHWAYS and other roads, likely causing more accidents. Well what about the other animals that have no food source left and cant venture out like deer? They will die, SLOWLY and PAINFULLY. So really in the long run this will help create a healthy forest. I have seen what happens to deer that venture out of there habitat into roads and get hit. They don’t always die instantly. Sometimes they die slowly. It’s much more humane for an expert hunter to shoot and kill a deer, because they have a greater chance of killing it instantly. So really some of you need to stop and think about how this will affect other animals and including the deer, in the long run. Instead of jumping in and saying that it is cruel get some facts first.
Posted 4:56 PM, 07.10.08
user harleyrider says...
This is in response to the previously posted voiceofreason. E. Joseph Lamp, Phd, I presume. C’mon Doc, don’t you get tired of writing the same old, tired, fallacies time and time again. It’s the same topic that you have published in the paper every year. All emotion and no scientific data or facts. You are playing with people emotions by giving wild animals human feelings. You and both know its called the Bambi effect. Bambi is a fictional character thought up by Walt Disney, given human facial and emotional characteristics and placed on cellulose film. You have always opposed hunting inclusive of special hunts to thin the deer herds in Howard County and Anne Arundel (Sandy Point Park) Counties, the western Maryland bear hunting. Let’s face it, even though you are on the commison, you basically oppose hunting.. You claim that you have taken numerous calls from many calling and pleading to have this cruelty stopped. My response is: How are all of your friends at HSUS, PETA and Funds for Animals doing? They write about you quite often. I’ll ask of you the same questions you posed in your previous writing. Tell me, Doc. Have you ever see a wounded deer with an arrow through its neck and coming out of its mouth wandering in your backyard? Or maybe you had some poor doe deer, with her fawn, come up to your kitchen window with an arrow sticking in its eye. I bet the honest and truthful answers would be no, because you know that bowhunters are near perfectionist with their shooting. I for one have let many deer walk, even though it was a good opportunity for a quick killing shot it still didn’t meet my standard to release the arrow. All of my shots for the last five years have all been within 20 yards of my stand with 100 percent recovery with 75 yards. In my days as a bowhunter, I have shot thousands and thousands of practice arrows from various stances, different yardages and differing heights all to enact the different hunting conditions I could encounter. This practice is the same for many of us. Most bowhunters instinctively know when it’s time to release the arrow for the quick and painless harvest of the animal. You know the population of the deer herd around the reservoir is well beyond the carrying capacity, but since its hunting you will condemn the practice every time. I guess you would rather have them get hit by a car and painfully drag themselves off to suffer for days or weeks before finally succumbing to their injuries. Or maybe have the herd get hemorrhagic/bluetongue virus where as much as 50 percent of the herd could die. Since deer look for water with this disease, I’m certain the people who have pools, small ponds filled with Koy, birdbaths, etc won’t mind a sick, starving, swollen tongue deer come into there yard for water and die. For many who may not know about this disease and others diseases with some of them possibly being able to passed to humans I would say google deer diseases and finds out for yourselves.
Posted 6:37 PM, 07.10.08
user javafour says...
This Enid woman is an idiot, pure and simple. I read her and her "life partner's" website and was pretty disgusted. For example, she advocates deer birth control, but FAILS to disclose the cost per doe! Guess what, it is roughly $1000 per. She makes a point about kids being allowed to hunt in MD. He Enid, I'm the day of two *shudder* sons and guess what? I HUNT WITH THEM! And if my 11 y-o wants to get out of my eyesight with his .410 bore hunting squirrels...I don't care because he's hunted and shot since age five. No doubt you have "man issues" and deep psychological problems fire your insanity. Your brain isn't adjusted correctly, Enid. You aren't normal, you are a moonbat kook. I could not care less about your mental problems, but why don't you quit trying to keep me from hunting with my boys! I don't bother you and your girlfriend.
Posted 6:54 AM, 07.12.08
user bea175 says...
I remember when just seeing a deer was a treat and when i killed my first deer in the early 60's people from all over the county came to see it. Now deer are on every corner. Who do you thank for this? The hunter. Hunters pay for conservation . Game Dept are totally funded by hunter like me , who truly love being in the outdoors. When i take a deer it is meat on the table. I can guarantee you, i care more for the deer i hunt that you guys and all your save the planet friends. It has been proven many times over that hunting is the best management tool . Birth control for deer doesn't work and it is a complete and expensive joke, by the way it doesn't work all that good for humans. You must wake up and see your good intentions does more harm to the deer than it will help. If hunters don't control the deer then Mother Nature will , through disease and starvation. If you really want to help the deer then give money to their support and let the Game Dept manage the deer, because that is what they are trained to do.
Posted 9:35 AM, 07.12.08
user frank12 says...
I am a gay man and I also support the proposed hunt. I just wish a couple people on here would stick to the hunt and leave Enid's orientation out of it. Statements like that give a redneck image to the good bright people who hunt.there is no reason for her to respect you if you make insane statements like she has "man issues". Thanks to the other good people on here who made solid reasoned arguments for this hunt. Stay safe in Iraq to the one hunter.
Posted 1:20 PM, 07.12.08
user frank12 says...
I am a gay man and I also support the proposed hunt. I just wish a couple people on here would stick to the hunt and leave Enid's orientation out of it. Statements like that give a redneck image to the good bright people who hunt.there is no reason for her to respect you if you make insane statements like she has "man issues". Thanks to the other good people on here who made solid reasoned arguments for this hunt. Stay safe in Iraq to the one hunter.
Posted 1:22 PM, 07.12.08
user stevetowson says...
frank12 - You're right. My only point in bringing it up was that celebrating diversity is always easy as long as one approves. It takes work to actually celebrate a lifestyle of which one doesn't approve. That's the test of one's convictions. Enid has made no secret of the fact that she's a lesbian, and you're gay. OK. I'm good with that. Live the life you want to live the way you want to live. If our paths cross be sure to say hello. Javafour - I understand your passion, and dislike for those who put hurdles in the paths of those of us who enjoy the hunt, but the insults reflect more poorly on hunters than they do on anyone else. She's not an idiot. She's a city person who doesn't understand the natural order of things, and can't see the ecological damage in the woods through the rose colored glasses she wears. We need to let our knowledge of the woods guide our statements, and responses. We hold all the aces on this issue, and have won the day at Loch Raven through hard work, honest education, and well reasoned debate. Do us all a favor, and please keep it civil.
Posted 7:07 PM, 07.12.08
user stevetowson says...
bea175 makes some great points. I suggest that anyone that wants some detail on these perspectives read what National Geographic has to say on the subject. I can't think of another source of information that could be considered less biased than they are. Cut and paste this link into your browser if you're interested; http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/11/hunters/poole-text.html
Posted 8:04 PM, 07.12.08
user rbhightor says...
why must we be constantly giving Enid Feinburg a voice .We might as well give voices to CLOWNS who claim to be experts on fuel economy simply because the drive tiny cars. Enid claims the DNR is so biased because the money supporting it comes from hunters yet she claims her data is fact but she is an staunch anti-hunter. She has zero credibility as an expert in anything except propoganda dedicated to the abolishment of an American, no a worldwide tradition as old as man himself. PLEASE find someone who might dispute the facts that are presented by DNR and other ligitimate organizations who has some real knowledge instead of giving this fraud a voice.
Posted 12:33 PM, 07.13.08
user rbhightor says...
I also do not agree with the personal attack on Enid by JAVAFOUR ,,,, However I have dealt with Enid in the past and believe me she is not above a personal attack on you or I. A few years ago we had an ongoing editorial argument in the COUNTRY CHRONICAL newspaper. I thought it was a rather interesting and inciteful debate, however when Enid was interested in having a water feature built at her house I had a pleasant conversation with her in the parking lot of Kingsdene Nursery until I handed her my business card. She realized who I was and promptly handed me the card back and told me she does not allow hunters on her property and walked away. Pretty darn prejudicial for someone who most likely has been a victim of discrimination due to her sexual orientation. Since she fancies herself an influencial person in our community I have followed suit and declare that no antihunters who are lesbians named Enid are allowed on my property. This could catch on ,,thank you
Posted 12:51 PM, 07.13.08
user rbhightor says...
oh one more thing ENVIRONMENTALISTS are NOT scientists, they are lobbyists. They have no credentials to claim scientific facts about anything.
Posted 1:01 PM, 07.13.08
user rbhightor says...
sorry , one more comment, to la930930, using the word SLAUGHTER when refering to hunting is like using the the phrase MERCY KILLING when refering to terrorism. It shows your ignorance as well as your extremist beliefs.........
Posted 1:10 PM, 07.13.08
user says...
WOW !!! Again here we are. Hunters vs anti hunters. A never ending nor winning issue. First, I am an avid Bow Hunter for over 25 years now. After reading through all of the comments posted, seems like both sides need to really get the facts straight. I will pick on the "HUNTERS" in here first. It is a lie to say a bow hunter always hits his mark and the deer "always" falls with in any distance. I have seen perfect vital shots and the deer run well over 200 yards. At the same time I have seen similar shots drop them immediately. As a matter of fact, many complain about tracking them a long distance and loosing the blood trail. That is why there are so many products on the market to help track a blood trail. As for the deer not feeling it,,,, ARE YOU KIDDING!!! I have heard deer let out the loudest sounds after being hit that is not for the weak in heart. As a matter of fact, many bow hunters are not a very good shot at all. And quite a few take some very chancy shots in desperation of just trying to get a kill. It angers me a little that some would portray them selves as hunters and describe how perfect and humane every kill is. It's just not true. Not even with a gun and especially not with a bow. We hunters use that as a ploy. There are many circumstances that can ruin a "great" shot and turn bad with a bow. The facts are, bow hunters make bad shots and the deer does not always die "peacefully" It can be very violent and death can be slow and agonizing. Those are the facts. For the anti hunters. In principal I completely disagree with your views. As stated in a previous post, you guys are really misinformed or just choose to see things in only your view. Conceding the fact that bow hunting can be brutal. Unless your a vegetarian, what live stock is not, in your eyes mistreated or brutalized by your standards. You should visit a "REAL" slaughter house some time, you may be surprised how "HUMANE" it is. The facts are, hunters do contribute "MILLIONS" of dollars a year,, just in Maryland alone for conservation. Through licensing, wild life donations and not to mention the "MILLIONS" we spend in annual supplies. Add to that the amount of deer meat donated by hunters. There is no doubt Maryland would not have some of the State lands today if not for us hunters. And the wild life you guys cherish so much would not be what it is today. I find it hard to believe that there are so many "ANTI HUNTERS" with all the positives that come from hunting for us. Most hunters take wild life conservation very seriously. Some don't,, but most do. For those of us who do, it is not like we are just passing through. We feel an obligation to the outdoors and the wild life. It is our passion, not just a hobby for most of us. We intend no harm to any human and we try to avoid any conflicts. While in the woods we go through great pains to make our presents unknown. In fact, we try to avoid any contact with anyone while in the woods. This is an age old argument for all of us and one not to be ever worked out. I have been on boards with this in the past and I understand some of the complaints against some hunting. And I agree with them. Loch Raven hunting is a problem because of the close proximity of the many homes that have been built into it. There is a safe salution. Hunting by lottery only, limit the days and the number of hunters per day and only those who have passed a Hunters saftey coarse a well as a shooting accuracy test of of the hunter. Including a minimal fee. Folks your alternative will be sharp shooters , that is very costly. As well as brutal. You talk about a slaughter. I have witnessed such a "success" of the sharp shooters in Gettysburg. And if you want to see a slaughter , thats exactly what that is. The last point is the starvation of deer. I have never personally seen a starving deer. Even in Loch Raven. However what I have seen and I think is worse is the in breeding that occurs with to many deer in one area. I suggest you look up those facts rather then me just spilling them here. Inbreeding is a serous problem even with out starvation and creates a multitude of problems for deer that can take many many years to correct, But again only with good management , which means hunting. Good luck to everyone involved with this. There is a solution, but everyone must be willing to negotiate. Other wise it will be a very bad experience for everyone.
Posted 1:13 PM, 07.13.08
user voiceofreason says...
Here they come. The ol’ one, two punch. First, it’s gang up time on a true Maryland hero, Enid Feinberg – a lady standing up for the Loch Raven deer, followed by incorrect information, logical fallacies, and half-truths. Let me clear the air about some of this for those reading this blog. Enid Feinberg has the courage and conviction to tell the truth and stand up for our whitetail deer whose land we have taken from them. In this case, it’s the Loch Raven deer. She and her supporters have also shown us how we can live in harmony with the deer – see www.deersolutionsmd.com. Yet, what’s being said about Ms. Feinberg? So far she’s been called hypocrital, ignorant, an idiot, has deep psychological issues, and a moonbat – whatever that is. She’s been attacked for her lifestyle, for her past. Now let’s dissect some of the rest of this and get the facts out that haven’t surfaced. Harleyrider’s back talking about Bambi and Walt Disney – the focus of a movie from decades ago. I would think that could easily be construed as a “fallacy of time.†Next, he’s telling us that bow hunters are near perfectionists with their shooting. Before you buy-in to that one, keep this in mind: Anyone with a Maryland hunting license can go into a sporting goods store, buy a compound bow and arrows, and be out deer hunting in the woods the next day during deer season. No practice required. Perfectionist? How’s that work? Bow hunting as humane? Just watch any of the outdoor bow hunting sports shows on cable TV like Ted Nugent’s “Spirit of the Wild†or “Getting’ Close.†Then make up your own mind as you watch those wounded deer run off into the woods with an arrow sticking in them while the hunter waits for the “bleed out†to occur before he or she begins the trek to try and find them. And you can bet they are putting on the best possible scenarios of it for these shows. As for Likemeat’s concern over Lyme disease, deer do not cause Lyme disease. Doubt me? Ask Secretary John Griffin, Secretary of the Maryland Department of Natural Resources. Birth control? The Human Society of the United States has clearly documented that birth control can work to reduce deer birthing, but in truth, it is indeed, still being perfected. Let’s urge our politicians to put more money behind this research now! Deer collisions on highways? Killing one deer with an arrow will not stop the living deer from causing more vehicle accidents. Yet, Enid Feinberg has found a way to reduce this problem via non-lethal alternatives. Her insistence on getting local government to place Strieter reflector lights along Dulaney Valley road has reduced deer-vehicle collisions by 90%. Finally, let’s get Harleyrider straight about hemorrhagic/bluetongue virus. Here’s the science. “Although it is logical to assume that host population density could affect the severity of hemorrhagic disease, there is very limited evidence that severity of disease is related to population density.†This quote comes directly from materials provided by the Maryland Department of Natural Resources, received from the Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study. As for Javapours’ decision to allow his child out of eyesight in the woods with .410 shotguns, presumably at that point unaccompanied by an adult, it can be legal in Maryland if the child has passed the Maryland Hunter Education course, has a hunting license and is abiding by the rules. No need for adult supervision excepting for very special “youth day†hunting that occurs 2-3 days a year. Now here’s what nobody is mentioning so far. NIH researchers have determined that the part of the brain responsible for judgments and values, and the weighing of risks and consequences has not developed yet in these kids, and probably won’t be fully developed until well into their 20s. So, you have kids out of eyesight – perhaps alone in the woods -- with lethal weapons and their brains not fully developed to handle critical modes of decision-making. Who knows what really goes on out there? Keep my information in mind as you read through this blog. More’s bound to be coming. I’m just showing there is a whole other side to all of this and please keep an open mind. In closing, thank you Enid Feinberg and everyone working to find a way to really “live and let live†as “User†asks us to do – but not at the expense of innocent animals losing their lives. Go Enid! You have no idea how many are out here in your corner! You are our hero!
Posted 1:39 PM, 07.13.08
user rbhightor says...
VOICEOFREASON you have hit the nail on the head, Enid is standing up for the rights of deer. THAT IS A LOBBYIST not a scientist who should have her OPINION printed in a newspaper as a reliable source of fact..PERIOD. As for you VOICEOFREASON, your name alone suggest that you would be a voice of compromise so that all can achieve a goal while keeping each others interest in mind, you clearly are not the voice of reason.. I noticed you did'nt chastise me for the content of my previous posts, I will take that as a compliment.....Ron "Reg" Bowers , Millers Md.
Posted 2:34 PM, 07.13.08
user rbhightor says...
If Enid had any idea how many people are in her corner she would quit this emotional campaign because if this blog is any indication of the amount of supporters then her corner has 3 people in it including her, it's a revolution by God
Posted 2:50 PM, 07.13.08
user rbhightor says...
still more..... the exhaustively repeated claim that only 2% of Marylanders hunt, that is based on hunting license purchases, the fact is you need no license to hunt on your own land as many of us do and the fact is hunters are going to other states to hunt because of the ever shrinking land available in the Great republic of MD. As hunters leave so will the public lands we pay for through license purchases. We all lose on that deal. thanks
Posted 3:02 PM, 07.13.08
user ajs1964 says...
Is that true, only 2% of Marylanders have a hunting lic. Where can I find that info. Don't worry user rbhightor, out of state hunters primarily Pa hunters are hunting Md by the thousands. I am one of them. And a big part of the reason is hunting is so restricted because of low deer counts in Pennsylvania. A proven product of years of poor deer management.
Posted 3:21 PM, 07.13.08
user rbhightor says...
you are so right ajs1964 I live in prettyboy reservoir and see all the PA. bowhunters that come to the watershed to hunt. I assume that the 2% does not include out of state licenses. Enids point is always that the majority of people do not hunt therefore the ones that do should have no voice. By that rationale we would still have segregation as well as no rights for homosexuals, and I am sure that a vast majority of people are against raising taxes but that never stopped our elected officials, even if the number is 2%, why should we be denied our voice...
Posted 3:36 PM, 07.13.08
user ajs1964 says...
That may be true about only 2%, which I find troubling. But most do not completely oppose hunting so staunchly as they have in this post. Anti hunters are actually a minority in the entire country. They would serve them selves better by finding some middle ground, instead of simply flat out opposing hunting on the basis of it being inhumane. Not to worry just yet, Anti hunters are out numbered and loose many more battles then they win, in part because they refuse to compromise. How ever there is a real need to get more people hunting. Part of the problem is the cost of hunting as well as making time to hunt. As you know it is not just "lets head out to the woods BUBBA", there is just a "little" more then that. Here is a perfect example, I am surprised there are not more hunters voicing their opinion here.
Posted 3:51 PM, 07.13.08
user ajs1964 says...
For the record Resident hunting Lic. contributed $3,393,324.00 32.17% Non Resident $2,632,133.00 24.95% And this one is interesting income tax check off $ 594,597.00 5.64% Seems like before some say lets do something other then allow hunting maybe they should spend some money on wild life management first. Maryland DNR report "The majority of funding for Maryland’s wildlife program comes from hunting licenses and fees, as well as the federal excise tax on sport hunting devices and ammunition. The federal aid funds are derived from an 11 percent excise tax on the sale of sport arms and ammunition through the Pittman-Robertson Fund."
Posted 4:10 PM, 07.13.08
user ajs1964 says...
This is the kind of information that the Anti hunters can not denounce. They are FACTS. I have never in all my time as a hunter, including being a member on previous boards of wild life management been told of a realistic alternative to this funding.
Posted 4:13 PM, 07.13.08
user ajs1964 says...
Ok one last thing I neglected to include, the federal excise tax is $3,410.526.00 , that is also 32.33% Add it all up folks . That means Hunters are contributing a whopping $9,435,713.00 or 89.45%
Posted 4:21 PM, 07.13.08
user rbhightor says...
thank you ajs1964 you are a person of facts, not emotions. Keep it coming and maybe we can squash the bugs who refuse to entertain any compromise that includes hunting of any sort. Oh sorry squashing bugs may be deemed inhumane..
Posted 4:35 PM, 07.13.08
user rbhightor says...
HUNTERS. you must realize we have the numbers to beat these radical antihunters, but your voice must be heard. Keep in mind we live in a wealthy liberal state and a lot of those who elect our liberal policymakers do so for one issue they think the politician will side with them on, not even considering other more important issues that never seem to get solved. If we don't vote we cannot be heard. now I must go I have a venison tenderloin on the grill
Posted 4:43 PM, 07.13.08
user ajs1964 says...
We are proud to serve and work with our hunters and trappers as stewards and keepers of the land. We are grateful to each of you for your commitment to the land and water we share and love. I wish you the very best in all your outdoor endeavors, and thank you for your invaluable contributions to our State and its natural diversity. Martin O’Malley Governor Just a small endorsement , found in the 2008/2009 Dnr hunting regulations.
Posted 5:00 PM, 07.13.08
user says...
"ARE YOU KIDDING!!! I have heard deer let out the loudest sounds after being hit that is not for the weak in heart. As a matter of fact, many bow hunters are not a very good shot at all. And quite a few take some very chancy shots in desperation of just trying to get a kill. It angers me a little that some would portray them selves as hunters and describe how perfect and humane every kill is. It's just not true. Not even with a gun and especially not with a bow. We hunters use that as a ploy. There are many circumstances that can ruin a "great" shot and turn bad with a bow. The facts are, bow hunters make bad shots and the deer does not always die "peacefully" It can be very violent and death can be slow and agonizing. Those are the facts." Fact's that I clearly pointed out in my post that you're addressing. No...I'M NOT KIDDING. The people I hunt with spend all year honing our archery skills. In fact we shot for three hours at a competition in Mayberry today with our hunting rigs. Much to the chagrin of my wife, I shoot for at least two hours every weekend. As for what you disagree with, I'm going by my experience, and the experieces of my friends. I've heard stories about deer making noise when hit, but never experienced it yet, but like I also said, I've only been bow hunting for three seasons, and killed three deer in the last two. All three ran less that 20 yards, and walked off. All three were dead less that 100 yards from my stand. One less than 50 yards. Before you discount my experience because of the number of deer I've killed with my bow, bear in mind that I have let many deer pass because I didn't get the shot I wanted. My rule, ETHICS FIRST, MEAT SECOND has probably cost me some deer I could have taken, but that's fine with me. I refuse to take a low percentage shot. As for Mr. Voice of reason... "Keep my information in mind as you read through this blog. More's bound to be coming. I'm just showing there is a whole other side to all of this and please keep an open mind." You really need to open your own mind, and actually be the voice of reason you claim to be, but are not. You can't possibly be so unreasonable on an issue, and claim to be the voice of reason. Your words belie your position, and therefore your credibility is nil. You've failed to mention the browse line, and the fact that a forest can only support a maximum of 10 deer per square mile. The two single most important factors driving this entire discussion. Using reflectors to keep deer off the road is a good, short term solution that addresses deer collisions, but does nothing about the overpopulation issues. Deer adapt, and soon they'll realize that those reflectors pose no danger, and they'll be innefective. Don't believe that? Take a ride out to Loch Raven Skeet, and Trap Club one day when they're shooting. The deer graze the fields while many people are firing shotguns for hours. They even get hit with the pellets, and don't leave the field. They've learned that these guns pose no danger, and they ignore them. Gettin' Close is one of my favorite hunting shows. Yes, you'll see deer run off when they're hit, exactly the way you'd see them run off if you were to shout at them, or drop a firecracker at their feet. You'll also see many shots passed up because the desired shot doesn't present itself. Deer are a prey animal, guided by the instincts of a prey animal. Their best defense is their feet, and as soon as something isn't right they use them. The fact is that ethical hunters bust their butts to make clean kills, and most are clean kills. A deer might spot a hunter just as an arrow flies, or hear the string on the bow, and be startled by it.This is why we strive for the fastest, and quietest equipment we can afford to buy. My current hunting bow retails for $729 bare. The sight, stabilizer, arrow rest, and other accessories push that figure to about $1150. I could buy a cheaper rig, or even top quality deer rifle for half of that. As was stated earlier, things can go wrong, and as I pointed out, experience levels vary. I also pointed out that I support a proficiency test for bow hunters. It could be easily done by allowing existing archery shops, and ranges to administer them for a small fee. This would raise the standard among bow hunters, and benefit the shops, who would issue a certification that would be collected by the person that issues a bowhunting license. This would be a worthwhile effort to make bowhunting a better sport, and drive those who don't practice enough now to become better shots. Even with all that, and the fact that bowhunting today is far more humane than when Native Americans were doing it... both Enid, and you wouldn't be satisfied. You oppose the very idea of bowhunting. So much for your celebrations of diversity in Maryland lifestyles. Back to the perfection issue though. Doctors are not perfect, and they mess up, but you'll trust a surgeon with your very life. It's very convenient to be able to say "hunters aren't perfect" but we're the FIRST to admit it, as has been done here numerous times, and we strive for it with every arrow we shoot whether in practice, ot at a live animal. Who in any profession, sport, or other endeavor can claim perfection? I've never seen anyone who could, and I'm 50 years old. You paint hunters with the same broad brush Enid does, and then come here complaining about people treating her less than fair. One reaps what one sows. Perfection among hunters won't happen any sooner than we'll have perfection in law enforcement, engineers, or in surgeons because like those folks, hunters are human. Also, many law enforcement officers, engineers, and surgeons are also hunters. We come frm many backgrounds, and income levels. Heck... I'd even bet there are some news reporters that are bowhunters too. You have a nice evening, while I prepare my equipment for next weekend's time on the range.
Posted 8:14 PM, 07.13.08
user says...
OK, I was going to leave this alone. But,, I just can't sorry. "user says..." you compare killing a deer to suicide. I will say it again, ARE YOU KIDDING!! Sure , just like suicide. Right after you plunge a 100 grain sharp piece of metal through flesh , bone and vitals. I am sure it is very peaceful for the deer. Understand this, I am a very avid hunter. I am very proficient with my weapons. I shoot all phases of archery, recurve, compound and a cross bow. And I have killed a lot of deer. And only very few have died "peacefully. " Good luck to you
Posted 9:23 PM, 07.13.08
user frank12 says...
I don't know why the hunters have not demanded that the press give their views. You see the government stand on this and then you see the so-called 'environmentalists" views on this in every story. But where are the hunters quoted in the Sun, Examiner or Towson Times or WJZ? You guys have some homework to do. How many meetings does Enid get with government officials and how many do the hunters get? BTW - don't badmouth environmentals, liberals and Democrats. I fall into these categories and support the thinning of thwe herd. If you think about it so do the city, county and state and these are all run by liberal Democrats. I wouldn't smack down your supporters.
Posted 9:42 AM, 07.14.08
user harleyrider says...
VOR Says: Harleyrider's back talking about Bambi and Walt Disney "" the focus of a movie from decades ago. I would think that could easily be construed as a "fallacy of time."? You started that argument with your opening paragraph equating innocent deer to us and them having no right to vote. You did it did again at the end of your rebuttal post, too. Pssst Doc, deer are wild animals incapable of reasoning, they are not able to think logically nor do they possess the capability to feel human emotions. The white-tailed deer is a state resource that is regulated by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) and is not a citizen of the state. Even though they may be nice to look at they are stinky, smelly, wild animals that carry diseases and are destructive to the land if they go unchecked. VOR says: Next, he's telling us that bow hunters are near perfectionists with their shooting. Before you buy-in to that one, keep this in mind: Anyone with a Maryland hunting license can go into a sporting goods store, buy a compound bow and arrows, and be out deer hunting in the woods the next day during deer season. No practice required. Perfectionist? How's that work? It works the same way that you tried to portray us as a bunch of irresponsible, bumbling, yahoos shooting up the woods. Aren’t you the one that started that argument with: Ever see a wounded deer with an arrow through its neck and coming out of its mouth wandering in your backyard or maybe you'll have some poor doe deer, with her fawn, come up to your kitchen window with an arrow sticking in its eye. I asked you in my previous post if you personally have ever seen those types of incidents. I take it that a lack of a response on your part is a definitive “NO†,because you would have most assuredly jumped on that question with both feet if you ever did. However I do know of an animal that is a perfectionist when it comes to killing deer. It lives to kill. Shall we re-introduce the timber wolf into Loch Raven and its surroundings? VOR says Bow hunting as humane? Just watch any of the outdoor bow hunting sports shows on cable TV like Ted Nugent's "Spirit of the Wild"? or "Getting' Close."? Then make up your own mind as you watch those wounded deer run off into the woods with an arrow sticking in them while the hunter waits for the "bleed out"? to occur before he or she begins the trek to try and find them. And you can bet they are putting on the best possible scenarios of it for these shows. Deer run from danger. It’s their instinct and that’s why they run after being shot. Let’s say for statistical purpose most deer die within 200 yds after being shot. Since they can run up to 35 MPH that means if the deer died within 200 yards it took less than 12 seconds or 2/10’s of a minute to expire. VOR says: Birth control? The Human Society of the United States has clearly documented that birth control can work to reduce deer birthing, but in truth, it is indeed, still being perfected. Let's urge our politicians to put more money behind this research now! I will. I’ll ask my delegates to contact the HSUS, Funds for Animals, PETA to find out how much funding they are willing to provide for this research since our state is really hurting right now. Better yet, since you’re such good friends with them, why don’t you ask? Don’t forget that we’ll also need to have USDA, CDC and the FDA approve the use of these chemicals since the deer are still subject to human consumption. Better yet, why don’t we put a warning label (like cigarettes) on all deer that have been subjected to birth control. I guess FHFH will have to stop all of the venison donations totaling millions of meals for the poor since the meat will be contaminated with the birth control chemicals, too. Deer collisions on highways? Killing one deer with an arrow will not stop the living deer from causing more vehicle accidents. Yet, Enid Feinberg has found a way to reduce this problem via non-lethal alternatives. Her insistence on getting local government to place Strieter reflector lights along Dulaney Valley road has reduced deer-vehicle collisions by 90%. How much do they cost per mile? Can the state afford them without raising our taxes? Uh-oh, this website says something different about the reflector lights. Seems more deer where hit after they were installed. http://www.twpusc.org/admin/deer/report00/strieter.htm A friend of mine had those deer whistles on his car and he swore by them, too. They worked perfect until he hit a deer and it knocked them off. Finally, let's get Harleyrider straight about hemorrhagic/bluetongue virus. Here's the science. "Although it is logical to assume that host population density could affect the severity of hemorrhagic disease, there is very limited evidence that severity of disease is related to population density."? This quote comes directly from materials provided by the Maryland Department of Natural Resources, received from the Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study. No need to try and straighten me out about the disease, Doc. My original post still stands. Nothing I said was wrong. From http://mdc.mo.gov/nathis/mammals/deer/disease.htm Hemorrhagic disease outbreaks tend to occur from August to September and may go unnoticed because carcasses quickly decompose and are scavenged. Some infected deer may not show obvious symptoms, while others may die in one to three days. Typical symptoms include fever, excessive salivation, swollen neck, tongue or eyelids, sloughed or interrupted growth of hooves, reduced activity and/or emaciation. Because sick deer are feverish, they are often found near water. Not all deer die from the disease, but losses of up to 50 percent have been documented.
Posted 1:18 PM, 07.14.08
user frank12 says...
Hey Harleyrider:Your quote: "Pssst Doc, deer are wild animals incapable of reasoning, they are not able to think logically nor do they possess the capability to feel human emotions." So what make deer and different than President Bush?
Posted 2:25 PM, 07.14.08
user ajs1964 says...
Man I like all these post, anti hunters vs hunters always gets the blood boiling and always , always, always, brings in political affiliation. For "user frank12" The reason "environmentalist, liberals and Democrats" always get the anti hunter rap is that it seems like that is always the affiliation of an anti hunter. Not saying all "environmentalist, liberals and democrats" are anti hunter, but all anti hunters seem to be , environmentalist. liberals and democrats. The exact same can be said for gun laws. And many other common sense God given rights we have, or should have. The difference between Bush and deer is obvious I thought. Deer are liberal environmentalist democrats. Jeez, I thought everyone knew that. They are one of the few us, Conservative gun toting Christian republicans are still allowed to brutally kill. And to anyone who really cares to check facts,, "harleyrider" Is 100% right.
Posted 4:08 PM, 07.14.08
user ajs1964 says...
The following is a definition of inhumane "Adj. 1. inhumane - lacking and reflecting lack of pity or compassion; "humans are innately inhumane; this explains much of the misery and suffering in the world"; "biological weapons are considered too inhumane to be used" Just maybe there are other real problems we should maybe consider first before we worry to much about stopping hunting
Posted 4:23 PM, 07.14.08
user says...
boy did this heat up fast... It seems to have really come down to Dems. vs. Reps. I am a gun toting, flag waving republican AND I vote. I grew up in a political family(my father ran for congress twice and was soundly beaten by Helen Bentley, thank God) Anyway he is a liberal and what I learned from arguing with my father is that liberals do not compromise. They also obtain all their "facts" from liberal sources and believe it all without question. Take Al Gore for example. He is a hypocrite who has a following of blind sheep who question NOTHING he says yet Al has made billions with a "B" off his globel warming crusade. If a republican did that he would be crucified by the media and every barefoot dope smoking hippie on the planet. Republicans ,on the other hand get to hear both sides of issues mostly because the liberal side is forced down our throats by the mainstream media outlets. Enid was on the news the other night telling her misinformation and lies while the hunters side was not addressed( and if it is you can bet it will be put forth by some "Larry the cable guy" type who will make us all look like uneducated rednecks. I sure hope you men and ladies who hunt will speak out loudly and do it soon because this issue is not just about a hunt in Loch Raven, it is a fight against the liberal mentality of tolerance, acceptance and diversity, unless they don't like it. And if they don't like it no one should like it. I did not want to dwell on Enids homosexuality, but boy is that rocket fuel to fight someone so narrow minded and one sided as she is. If you look at her posts all she does is repeat the same mantra over and over without ever engaging anyone in civil debate. I don't think she can. I once asked her if she defended deer so passionately because they are "cute" or does her passion extend to all living creatures and if so would she welcome large populations of rats feeding on he land. She did not respond. AJS, you are right. If her positive legacy is she saved some deer, then her negative legacy is she deprived many hungry people from a good meal thanks to" Hunters for the hungry" programs that will be denied a bountiful harvest from us rednecks who will undoubtedly donate meat from the deer we harvest in Loch Raven. For shame, for shame.
Posted 2:41 PM, 07.15.08
user rbhightor says...
by the way Enid's website DEERSOLUTIONSMD.com has a question area. I asked a question and got no answer so i will assume the questions she will answer are from those who agree with her so I encourage all hunters to post questions to her until her inbox is clogged.
Posted 2:51 PM, 07.15.08
user says...
Frank12 - We are very organized, but one can only assume by their actions(or lack of) that the press in Maryland has little interest in what we have to say. It looks like they actually ARE that one sided. As far as I'm aware, not one person from the Sunpapers, The Examiner, or Patuxent Publishing has contacted the MBS, Maryland Bowhunter's Society for a comment on this topic. For this reason we're relegated to places like this, The Sunpapers bulletin board, and our own very informative website to get the word out about our activities, positions, and opinions. http://www.marylandbowhunterssociety.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Maryland Bowhunters Society is dedicated to promoting and preserving bowhunting; educating the non-hunting public about the role of the bowhunter in wildlife management and conservation; and educating bowhunters in safety, shooting skills, hunting techniqes and landowner relations. The MBS strongly advocates ethical bowhunting within the laws of the jurisdiction hunted and in a sportsmanlike manner under the Rules of Fair Chase established by the Pope and Young Club. The Maryland Bowhunters Society works in close cooperation with the state legislature, county and municipal governments, the Department of Natural Resources, and many hunting and conservation organizations throughout Maryland and the United States including the Wildlife Legislative Fund of America, Bowhunters of America, and has worked with a American Hunting Rights Action Committee. It is a co-sponsor with the DNR in the Maryland Trophy Deer Contest. The MBS is Actively fighting the anti-hunting movement and has been recognized by DNR and the Maryland Wildlife Advisory Board for its efforts to protect hunting." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for those who think the deer should have a voce in the legislature, or would have them casting votes on election day, why not then allow voting by raccons, beavers, rats, and roaches? I believe that kind of thinking simply speaks for itself, and it's value is obvious on it's own face, and merrits. We all have a respect for animals, but to humanize them doe them a great disservice, and when that happens we end up with situations such as Loch Raven. As a very important side note, and addressing the safety concerns of non-hunters around the lakes, and parks in the State, there have been very rare incedents of hunters injuring themselves, or other hunters in the field, but in the 100 year history of regulated hunting in Maryland a non-hunter has never been shot by a hunter with a firearm, or bow.
Posted 2:55 PM, 07.15.08
user rbhightor says...
A hunter will harvest it, butcher it, prepare it, bless it then share it among family and friends. A liberal will sit at the table with fork in hand waiting for the government to deliver it, inspect it, prepare it in a non threatening way, and serve it on a government issue platter, no blessing because that would be discriminatory towards godless heathens and satan worshipers. Oh they may wipe the grease off their mouths on the flag before burning it.
Posted 3:01 PM, 07.15.08
user harleyrider says...
Since safety was mentioned, hard core data from hospital injury reports proves you have a better chance of being injured in a ping-pong game than in a hunting accident. And the hunting accident report included both firearms and archery hunters. The Lock Raven hunt will only be archery hunters. The vast majority of hunting accidents are self-inflicted. For example, falling out of a treestand or cutting yourself with a knife / broadhead. Just like shark bites, the media makes note of such attacks because they are newsworthy. But, in reality, on a per capital basis, archery has always been one of the safest outdoor activities. Only canoeing is less dangerous! However if someone does tip over their canoe and drown it is all over the news. In fact, the latest data shows that bowling has 3X more injured participants than bow hunting! Also, I spoke to a deer biologist about my 12 seconds to death post and he told me its more like 3.9 seconds.
Posted 3:15 PM, 07.15.08
user says...
I took my youngest son hunting one day when he was six and put a good stalk on a large doe, with him at my side I shot and killed the deer. I told him to go up on the hill and sit while I field dressed the deer but he insisted on watching. Not only did it not turn his stomach he started asking me which organ was what. I was surprised and impressed with his enthusiasm. On another hunt we belly crawled in the snow for nearly an hour to get a close shot on a buck. We got to within 30 yards and I realized it was a small yearling buck and decided not to shoot it. Partly because i try to limit the young deer I harvest but more importantly to teach Levi to respect nature and that hunting is not always about the kill. He felt a little slighted that we had put so much time in pursuing this deer and he did not get to see his daddy kill it, but he learned a valuable lesson that day that he still remembers now that he is hunting himself. We are not the blood thirsty monsters we are portrayed as by the anti's. Here is another thought to chew on. How come the sight of a wounded or dead deer causes such sorrow and repulsion in people but CSI and LAW AND ORDER type show that will not only show dead, mutilated humans, but show the detail of how much meat and flesh the weapon of choice ripped and tore are the top rated shows on TV. Maybe if we took the death row inmates out in the woods and hunted them on national TV we would have a hit show. Just an idea.
Posted 3:41 PM, 07.15.08
user rbhightor says...
tonights menu consists of an appetizer of Venison bologna with pepperjack cheese followed by Goose breast strips with a sesame ginger glaze and our own garden grown snow peas, thanks to mother nature and no trips to Wegmans ,thank you and God bless America
Posted 3:50 PM, 07.15.08
user harleyrider says...
If I wasn't taking my wife to the Oregon Grille for our 30th wedding anniversary, I'd ask what time you wanted us over and what kind of wine do you want us to bring. LOL
Posted 4:54 PM, 07.15.08
user rbhightor says...
happy 30th harleyrider that is a big milestone these days, my wife I and will celebrating our 20th in Sept.
Posted 6:32 PM, 07.15.08
user rbhightor says...
I just read through all the posts and have noticed not one real rebuttal from Enid or Voiceofreason. I think they may be overwelmed by all these hunters who actually have intelligent ideas and arguments supporting our rights and freedoms.
Posted 6:58 PM, 07.15.08
user stevetowson says...
ALL THEIR POINTS have been shown for what they are. They appeal to emotion, and solicite visceral reations to their half truths, unsupported and unsbstantiated claims. Those that are support hunting at Loch Raven in this discussion have made reasoned arguements for it based on facts, data that is supported by the best ecologists, and have the backing of local wildlife officials, along with elected representatives. bowhunting is decidedly the best option available to us at this time, and the arguments for other options are both expensive, unreliable, and even more dangerous to the ecosystem. The dream solution for those against the hunt would love to be able to use hormones in an attempt at deer birth control, but what of that? suppose we could get the chemicals at no charge, and a bunch of volunteer went out and started darting does all around the lake? What next? These darted does have no idea where the boundary lines are around the lake. They will end up on private property where they will be hunted, killed, and the chemically laced meat will end up on tables all over the area. Add to that, these deer will continue to be killed by cars. What of the scavengers that eat the meat. Raccons, foxes, crows, buzzards, BALD EAGLES... etc. How will this chemically laced meat effect them? Granted... this option is still on the drawing board, but those supporting the research that leads us down this path need to read up on the effects DDT had on scavenging populations before they take us down the same garden path again. It was a disaster, and is not only possible, but likely if start a wholesale introduction of chemicals into the food chain again. More food for thought from a genuine voice of reason named stevetowson.
Posted 8:12 PM, 07.15.08
user rbhightor says...
slamdunk stevetowson!!!Enid where are you?, WAIT.. there's been a slaughter here...
Posted 9:26 PM, 07.15.08
user rbhightor says...
here's another topic of interest . Enid says she has a petition with thousands of names on it. Are there printed names and addresses of adult citizens that can be verified? I find that hard to believe when I know so many people who hunt in the Loch Raven area by permission of homeowners who welcome a bowhunter. I also found out the hard way that some neighborhoods have covenants that forbid hunting even on your own property. After gaining permission to hunt a property in Loch Raven several years ago, I was met by the game warden as I exited the woods at dark. I received a ticket for $125 for trespassing and hunting without permission. I took it to court and won , the judge even asked me if I had a successful hunt,but unfortunately he also said I cannot hunt there due to the neighborhood covenent. By the way I saw 25 or more deer that evening....
Posted 9:41 PM, 07.15.08
user frank12 says...
I still see these posts which say the "liberals" and "Democrats" are the opponents of this hunt. You can't say that since the state, county and city officials - all lead by DEMOCRATS whom most consider to be LIBERAL - are the ones proposing this hunt! If you keep saying what is not true then you will have a Larry the Cable Guy type image. I think Stevetowson should send his message as a lettter to the Sun.
Posted 10:04 AM, 07.16.08
user ajs1964 says...
I also notice, how after the facts are presented here , there is no response. Not even a brief rebuttal. Why is that? I have written to the Sun asking politely for The Sun to get a different perspective , and have yet to get a reply from them either. Why is that? Never fear Hunters. As I see it , with the new Hunting regulations , we are in good shape in Md. Hunters are still allowed taking unlimited Doe in the most deer over populated areas and to help in getting these areas under control better, they are allowing the use of cross bows in those areas for all of bow season. Thats in addition to the 4 weeks allowed at other areas. Maryland DNR has an excellent deer management program. Just look at the number of deer we have and the amount of hunting we are allowed. They have done a great job looking back to the 70's to now.
Posted 10:34 AM, 07.16.08
user stevetowson says...
frank12 said; " I think Stevetowson should send his message as a lettter to the Sun. " Thank you. Using my comments here, I compiled, edited and sent letter to the Sun in their "Having your say" section. Let's see if they have the courage to print all, or even any of it.
Posted 11:17 AM, 07.16.08
user rbhightor says...
Sorry frank12. I do not mean to say all democrats are liberals, but most liberals do not hunt and many oppose it .
Posted 8:12 AM, 07.17.08
user rbhightor says...
Last comment until someone says something I must comment on. I love the analogy about the the lady with 50 cats. that is exactly what Enid and the wildlife rescue lady remind me of . the crazy cat lady on The Simpsons.lol . One too many hits of acid at a Dead show I suspect.... If everyone just stops killing each other and holds hands, flowers will bloom from the ends of gun barrels and we will have a peaceful world. right!!!
Posted 4:21 PM, 07.18.08
user rbhightor says...
did anyone read the letter in the North Co. News by JM Bowen . I invite Mr.Ms Bowen to take a nice walk in Loch raven this fall, I have a nice buckskin coat you can wear. I also invite all military personnel who need to "satisfy their bloodlust" to join me there
Posted 3:13 PM, 07.30.08
user stevetowson says...
I saw it. I sent a letter too. I haven't see that yet.
Posted 3:43 PM, 07.30.08
user rbhightor says...
I just finished typing a letter. I am furious that a letter like that would be published, but I am happy that the true colors of the "Fienberg few" has come to light . Any reasonable person whether a hunter or not should be offended by such a destructive commentary
Posted 6:26 PM, 07.30.08
user rbhightor says...
The fight just got real personal....the internet is a wonderful tool Enid and friends, this is war. Reasonable minds always defeat the extreme, Hitler, Mussilini, the Klan, DeersolutionsMd.......The Sun, Wbal, wjz etc..... must realize that they give voice to an extremist view that does not reflect the views of most citizens in Northern baltimore county or the Nation for that matter
Posted 6:36 PM, 07.30.08
user stevetowson says...
Well... AGAIN... I wasn't printed.I countered every point Enid has made, and again my text, my facts, my views, and my answers appear to be in the Towson Times dumpster. Instead The Towson Times runs two letters with opposing viewpoints, and I suppose this is their version of "equal time" despite the wholesale typesetting they've done for the "non-lethal" crowd. I agree... it's quickly becoming time to take off the gloves, if we're not there already.
Posted 7:07 PM, 07.30.08
user stevetowson says...
Almost 50 deer down inside the first week. Good shooting folks.
Posted 10:14 PM, 09.27.08
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